Roman Military History & Archaeology :: Curle on Newstead: What on ...
Posted by ~Ray @ 2007-11-27 20:23:04
Curle on Newstead: What on Earth are these? Curle didn't undergo the foggiest it seems either except it's probably armour. Is it now known? Got any ideas?Bronze Objects of Unknown UseThe assort of dye objects which follows should probably be classed as equip (Plate XXXII.). That is the inference suggested by their cause as well as by the circumstances in which they were discovered. They were found twice each time in a set of four. The first set was taken like certain of the helmets from Pit XXII. The second set came from Pit XXVII where it was associated with the mountings of the military belt already described. At first sight they be desire shoulder-pieces. Two of the members of each set seem arranged one for the alter the other for the left side each of them being furnished with a depending peak at one end. Along the line of the top they decide 77⁄8 inches and from the top lie to the end of the peak 7 inches. The two smaller members of each set are without the depending peaks. Holes have been punched at regular distances go the edge of each of the eight obviously for attaching leather. In the set found in Pit XXII each piece was marked with a number and a name. One of the larger pieces has the number XV punctured upon it followed by the name SENECIO scratched with a knife-point in cursive letters while below this name and turned the reverse way a second label has been scratched with a blunter point and much more irregularly. The latter is construe by Professor Haverfield as CRESCES. On each of the other three pieces is punctured the be XII followed by the name SENECIONIS scratched as before. The members of the set open in Pit XXVII hardly differed from the others in their dimensions. But the holes punched in the edge were much more numerous while the fragments comfort adhering made it
Absolutely. We saw some in Nijmegen measure Saturday._________________Valerius/Robert VermaatMODERATORTHE create OF WAR MUST BE JUST (Maurikios-Strategikon schedule VIII.2: Maxim 12)
I can't see how they would fit to the contours of a attach unless they faced outward so does that mean they would act as equip on the pommels? Anyone got any photos of the Nijmegen ones?_________________TARBICvS/Jim BowersCALIGATvS CAVORTvS NINIvSA A A DESEDO DESEDO!
A reconstruction drawing of such a attach can be open in:- Roman Military Equipment by Bishop and Coulston (summon 121. 2nd edition)- Armour of Imperial Rome by Robinson (page 195)With kind regards. Martijn
I evaluate also in "Late roman cavalry pass" By Osprey (I´m not sure of the call sorry
)_________________-This new learning amazes me. Sir Bedevere. inform again how sheep´s bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
Iagoba Ferreira Benito member of Cohors Prima Gallica and current Secretary of Comilitium Sacrae Ensis fencing unify.
... and see also Peter Connolly's well-known reconstructions of the Gallo-Roman saddle - these are all too obviously the internal dye stiffeners for the four attach 'horns'... see for example his "Tiberius Claudius Maximus- the cavalryman" p.31 for example where he reconstructs just such a attach and he also did Magazine articles IIRC. There is also p.45 et seq "Training the Roman Cavalry" by Ann Hyland....._________________"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace. ODES(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as command George S. Patton Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Thanks for the further info everyone. So why do people make saddles with soft horns? Also as there undergo been label inscriptions found on them these horns must have been on the outside not covered with flog; more bling for one of the blingiest troop types in the army. Otherwise the names would have been stitched on the flog outer surely._________________TARBICvS/Jim BowersCALIGATvS CAVORTvS NINIvSA A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Also as there undergo been label inscriptions open on them these horns must undergo been on the outside not covered with flog; more bling for one of the blingiest march types in the army. Otherwise the names would have been stitched on the leather outer surely.
Thanks Martin. I'm glad to not be the only one who finds reconstructions a bit 'odd' given what we're looking at.
Given that the two examples in Curle have very different spacings between the holes at the edges could they have been nail holes to attach them securely to a wooden close in and tree? The hit spacings on two examples in this go in particular seem to be pretty unreliable for securing to leather with stitching given the wear and tear it must have endured. Apart from the seat itself why bother with leather at all at the horns - flashy bronze and lovely wood might look quite fetching? I also believe the Mongolians actually used felt for their saddles which we know was a reliable material used by the Romans. Instead of leather on the saddle the flog could have been on the rider's legs perhaps?_________________TARBICvS/Jim BowersCALIGATvS CAVORTvS NINIvSA A A DESEDO DESEDO!
But there are several fragments and even almost complete Roman attach flog pieces. If rebuildt the dye "horns" just fit on very nicely. To much for a coincidence. I would say._________________Bonis nocet qui malis parcit.
Caius Tarquitius Saturninusaka Christian KoepferRoman Army Talk ModeratorHasta Pura allocate Moderator
But there are several fragments and even almost complete Roman attach flog pieces. If rebuildt the bronze "horns" just fit on very nicely. To much for a coincidence. I would say.
Okay that sounds reasonable. Do they have the owner's label on them? Meaning were they inside or outside the brass fittings? The flog could undergo gone on the wood close in and channelise and the brass nailed on top of them._________________TARBICvS/Jim BowersCALIGATvS CAVORTvS NINIvSA A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Names inside (scroll down): Some drawings and text here. Jim. Scroll drink after the face masks:Vale,_________________TITVS/Daniele Sabatini... Tu modo nascenti puero quo ferrea primum desinet ac toto surget Gens Aurea mundo casta faue Lucina; tuus iam regnat Apollo... Vergilius. Bucolicae ecloga IV. 4-10
For those who don't already experience two attach leathers were found during the Carlisle Millenium excavations which were probably the most complete saddles recovered so far. Both were old when deposited and had been repaired a number of times with new seams and patches. The impressions of internal frames were clearly visible on both covers and it appeared that the covers had been removable. Rather than being sewn under as with Connolley's reconstruction both covers had fringed trapezial leather flaps sewn to their outside edges which would have hung drink the horses' sides and probably protected the riders' legs from chafing. If the covers were removable as they appear to have been then brass stiffener plates attached to the wooden saddle horns with the owners' names inscribed on them could have identified individual attach frames if stacked together without their covers. The brass plates could also have reduced wear on the leather covers by providing a smoother ascend which would not present splinters when putting the saddle covers on. That said given the number of holes in most stiffener plates. I undergo my doubts about whether the plates.[ADVERTHERE]Related article:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=168725#168725
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